Episode 1: Dr. Elizabeth Campbell

In our first episode, we meet Dr. Elizabeth Campbell, a head of lab at Rockefeller whose research on Mycobacterium tuberculosis and coronaviruses has expanded our understanding of gene expression in pathogens. Beyond the lab, we learn about Dr. Campbell’s Caribbean roots, her love of literature and teaching exercise classes, and why science is like the New York Times crossword.

Beyond the Lab is produced by RockEDU Science Outreach and was recorded during the 2024 Summer Science Research Program (SSRP). To learn more, visit rockefeller.edu/outreach.

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Note: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.

Jacob: Okay. 

Hana: Almost ready. 

Jacob: Yeah. Okay. Record. 

Elizabeth: Science should be fun. It should be kind. It should be sort of like a family [in] the lab. So I think that’s important that you’re not just part of a factory putting out papers in science. 

Leora: Okay. All together. 

Jacob: All together. 

Hana: Okay. We have to say it slowly so it’s in sync. Hi everyone. We’re Hana,

Leora: Leora, 

Jacob: and Jacob, 

Hana: and this is… 

In unison: Beyond the Lab!

Leora: Welcome to Beyond the Lab, the podcast where we discuss all things not science with the world’s leading scientists. Today we’re honored to have Dr. Elizabeth Campbell, a Head of Lab at The Rockefeller University. Dr. Campbell’s pioneering work in microbiology focusing on Mycobacterium tuberculosis and coronaviruses has led to crucial insights into pathogen transcription mechanisms. An elected fellow of the American Association of Microbiology, she recently received the 2023 Emil von Behring Prize. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Campbell. 

Elizabeth: Thank you for having me. 

Jacob: Our goal in this podcast is to show any of the listeners that scientists aren’t maybe necessarily what they have in mind when they think of scientists. And I think you’re maybe a perfect example of that because your backstory’s a little bit different.

Before we get to that though, we have a fun little segment at the beginning of our podcast. 

Leora: First, an icebreaker! 

Hana: All right. So Dr. Campbell, we wanna know, what is your favorite way to eat potatoes? 

Elizabeth: French fries. 

Jacob: French fries. That’s a good answer. 

Hana: What about you, Jacob? 

Jacob: I really like a good, thick potato soup with scallions in it maybe.

Hana: Great. Good answer. And what about you, Leora? 

Leora: I really like a nice baked potato. 

Hana: Nice. 

Leora: And what about you, Hana? 

Hana: I love salt and vinegar chips. That’s my favorite way. 

Jacob: Yeah, those are good. We wanna talk a little bit about your origin story. You didn’t grow up in America, right? You grew up in Guyana. 

Elizabeth: That’s correct. So I was born in South America in Guyana, British Guyana, and I came to America in 1982 when I was 12 years old. 

Jacob: What was your childhood like? 

Elizabeth: So it was interesting. Guyana is a developing country. We were underneath a communist regime for a while, so it was a little bit tough. Things like bread and toilet paper that people take for granted, we would have to go on line for it once a month for our allocation. 

Jacob: Wow. 

Elizabeth: Disease was rampant. We didn’t have very good medical care–vaccinations and all of those things were not available early on in childhood. 

Hana: And did you always know that you wanted to be a scientist or did your childhood kind of influence that or did you realize later in life? 

Elizabeth: No, I wanted to be a nun, and then I wanted to be a lawyer, and then I wanted to be a scientist. 

Jacob: Wow. Why did you want to be a nun? 

Elizabeth: I went to Catholic school and I think I just had this vision of wearing these robes. It was really cool. But yeah, so that was the reason. Yeah. 

Leora: So what age were you when you decided to become a scientist? 

Hana: And what influenced you? 

Elizabeth: Oh yeah. So I didn’t think I wanted to be a scientist until I was in college in my junior year, actually senior year. A lot of it was mentors in college, seeing my professors do science, having the opportunity to go and do summer research in other universities and do science. And that’s when I realized, oh, you can make a living doing this. So that’s when it happened. 

Leora: Yeah. Where did you go to college? 

Elizabeth: Swarthmore. 

Hana: Oh, nice. And what was your college experience like? 

Elizabeth: Yeah, it was pretty amazing.

So I came from a failing school in New York. So I went to school in Queens, Flushing High School, and it was closed later on as a failing school. So I think I was the only Flushing person to go to Swarthmore. So I wasn’t as prepared as some of the… Like my kids go to private schools now, and I know how well prepared they are, and I was definitely nowhere near that.

But what was nice about Swarthmore, it’s small and the professors care, so they really worked with me to get me up and running. So that’s what I love the most about Swarthmore. 

Jacob: Did you have any teachers in high school or in college that really shaped your decision to become a scientist?

Elizabeth: I just always really loved science, but I think the teacher that shaped me the most was my English teacher in literature. So I took AP English and Shakespeare in literature and he was amazing. He was also gay and I think it was hard for him at that time. So he and I just had a really great relationship as a student and teacher talking about things that are tough and how you should be yourself and be your true self. And I think he was probably more inspiring in terms of following dreams. 

Hana: That’s amazing. 

Jacob: Wow. 

Hana: And can you tell us a little bit about how and when you got to Rockefeller?

Elizabeth: Yeah. So I came to Rockefeller in 1992 for my PhD. I knew I wanted to come to [the] place where DNA was discovered as genetic material, and I wanted to work with people who were part of that. So I came here and then I stayed and I did my postdoc here as well. 

Leora: Just going back to college for a second, what other activities did you do in college? 

Elizabeth: Oh, wow. I was kind of boring in college. So as I mentioned, I am Caribbean. There are not a lot of Caribbeans at Swarthmore. So my roommate was African American, so I spent a lot of time in the Black cultural center, and so I did a lot of activities with them, like parties. And then I also did tutoring. So next to Swarthmore is a neighborhood that’s very underserved, Chester. And so we would go into the Chester neighborhood, there was a church and the kids [could] come there and we would do tutoring. And then I was mostly a lab rat working in the lab. 

Hana: Nice. And you had a slightly non-traditional path to becoming a PI over here. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that? 

Elizabeth: Yeah, so I came to New York actually with my husband. He came as a professor. I came as a student. I came one year before him, but we had met before at Stanford, one of the places where I did summer research. So we knew we wanted to be in the same place. And he was actually a big part of why I ended up in grad school, ‘cause he was doing science as well too. 

So I came here. My path was that I did my postdoc there. I didn’t think I wanted to run a lab, for many reasons. I actually don’t know the exact reason, but one was I had kids at the end of my PhD. The second was I had a sister who was very sick. She passed away from COVID, so I needed to be in New York and spend a lot of time with her. And then the third was I–maybe subconsciously–I’ve never seen another Caribbean scientist as well. 

But I don’t know how much of that [was] actually a part of it. But I didn’t think I wanted to run a lab. And then one day I woke up and I said, “I do wanna run a lab.” And so I just decided to go for it. 

Jacob: Wow. 

Hana: That’s amazing! 

Leora: Yes! 

Elizabeth: And that was this year. 

Leora: Wow. Can you tell us a little bit about your kids? 

Elizabeth: Oh, yeah, sure. So I have a 26-year-old daughter, Maya. She’s training to be a clinical psychologist. 

Hana: Amazing. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. And she was actually inspired by one of the forces here. I think she was the first female professor to be tenured at Rockefeller, Mary Jeanne Kreek. She actually was one of the first people to propose using methadone for heroin treatment. 

Jacob: Oh wow. 

Elizabeth: And so she actually inspired Maya a lot and interestingly, I’m inheriting her space to start my lab, so… 

Jacob: Wow!

Elizabeth: Really excited by that. And Amba is actually now at Swarthmore too. Training to be a biochemistry major. Yeah. 

Hana: Was it difficult for you balancing work and your kids when they were younger? 

Elizabeth: I would say yes because my husband was getting tenured. 

Hana: Right. 

Elizabeth: Probably another reason I didn’t pursue it right then and there. I will say that there was a woman in my life, Carol Gross, who is 80 years old and one of the first generation scientists, a woman, and she always used to look at me and be like, “it’ll happen one day.” And she says, “you know, I waited until my kids were grown up before I did it.” So yeah, I think that’s [also] an important aspect for this journey. One day waking up being [like], “yep, my kids are grown up and I am gonna just do it.” 

Leora: That’s great! So can you tell us about any hobbies you have outside of the lab?

Elizabeth: I used to read a lot and I used to really love to learn languages, but science kind of takes away from a lot of that when you’re running a lab. So my outlet [is] exercise. So I teach spin and I teach another class called cardio sculpt. And so I asked HR to buy the bikes and they did and I just got certified and started teaching. I get to meet the postdocs, I get to meet the administration. 

So it’s not just all my lab and just scientists. And it’s really cool just to go listen to Rihanna and Beyonce and stuff like that. And what I realized is I’m really old ’cause I need the students to tell me what the more current music is. 

Hana: I think most of our listeners know a little bit about what spin class is like, but can you tell us about what cardio sculpt is? I’ve never heard of that. 

Elizabeth: All right. So, okay. Let me just have spin first ’cause that’s what I’m really excited about. Yeah. So the spin allows me to listen to my eighties and nineties music and force it on new millennials and Gen Z, to make you appreciate the classics. But I also get to hear the new music. The cardio sculpt is more focused on sort of interval training. So we’ll do a minute of cardio and then a minute of weights or push ups or planks, something strength, and then a minute of cardio.

Hana: Now, Dr. Campbell, can you tell us a little bit about your favorite ways to unwind or de-stress after a long week in the lab? 

Elizabeth: Again, that’s spin. But I do like eating out. So yeah.

Jacob: Oh, nice. What’s your favorite cuisine? 

Elizabeth: Oh, so many. Probably Thai. Yeah. I really like Thai food. I really like Japanese food. I have a thing for sushi, once I started eating it, yeah. 

Jacob: What’s your favorite sushi place in the city? There are so many to pick from. 

Leora: Yeah, I was gonna ask also, any NYC restaurant recommendations? 

Elizabeth: All right. This is gonna show my privilege now. So I really like Sushi Seki. I’ve always wanted to go to Masa, but I’m not comfortable spending $600 on a meal. So, but yeah. But right now I think Sushi Seki has a good deal for amazing sushi. And it’s right close by. 

Leora: Favorite dessert? 

Elizabeth: Anything chocolate. Like dark chocolate, molten cake or, yeah. Chocolate. Yeah. Anything dark chocolate. 

Hana: This is a perfect segue into my favorite segment of this podcast: Dr. Campbell’s favorite things! Now, Leora, do you wanna start?

Leora: Yeah so, what’s your favorite clothing store? 

Elizabeth: Ay ay ay! Um, Athleta? 

Leora: Oh, I like that one too. 

Hana: That’s great. And we were also wondering about your favorite books, ’cause I know you liked to read growing up. 

Elizabeth: Oh yeah. Like, as I said, current books not so much, but I have a thing for the classics, so I like,

Hana: Me too!

Elizabeth: I love the Brontë Sisters. I like Austen. My favorite book might be, there are two, Things Fall Apart and Frankenstein. 

Hana: Things Fall Apart is such a beautiful book. 

Jacob: I’m very excited. I’m reading Frankenstein in the fall as part of my AP English curriculum. I’m very, very excited. 

Elizabeth: Oh, yeah, she’s amazing. Mary Shelley, yes. 

Hana: And do you have a favorite sport? 

Elizabeth: Favorite sport..I’m not very sporty. Maybe ping pong? 

Hana: Ooh I love ping pong!

Elizabeth: Oh, I love, yeah. So that’s probably the only thing I can do. 

Hana: Have you tried pickleball? 

Elizabeth: Uh, no. I…okay. So full disclosure, I have a secret competitive streak that comes out and I don’t like it. 

Leora: Oh, no!

Elizabeth: And so I get really wound up when I play, so I try not to do it. 

Hana: I think you’d like pickleball. It’s a lot of fun. 

Leora: Pickleball’s pretty low key. 

Elizabeth: Yeah? You haven’t seen me play it yet. 

Leora: Alright, our next one: your favorite song. 

Elizabeth: Oh my God. Um, favorite song…uh…maybe Whitney Houston, “I Will Always Love You”. 

Leora: Oh, that’s a great song.

Jacob: Do you play that during your classes? 

Elizabeth: Cool down. Yes. 

Leora: Oh, nice. 

Jacob: That’s great. How about a favorite musical artist? 

Elizabeth: Ay ay ay, um, so it’s probably right now…it’s very old school again, I really like The Cranberries. Yeah. Currently loving Rihanna. She’s also Caribbean.

Hana: Yeah. And I think you are the only Caribbean PI at Rockefeller. Can you tell us a little bit about what that was like coming here and being a sort of pioneer? 

Elizabeth: Yeah, it’s been an interesting journey and to be honest, I’ve always been a little self-conscious. You can’t hear it now, but I do have a Caribbean accent and so [I’ve] always been a bit self-conscious speaking or giving lectures and things like that.

I will say there [is] another professor here, Vanessa Ruta, who’s an amazing neuroscientist, and her husband is from Trinidad. And getting to know that family and speaking Caribbean, we call it Trini or Guyanese, in the elevator really allowed me to get past that. 

Jacob: Wow. 

Elizabeth: So I think it’s important, even if it’s a spouse or a partner in the community. But yeah, and as I said, it’s opened up kind of a door for other Caribbean young scientists to reach out and discuss things like that. But now it’s been fun! Now I embrace it. It’s fun. Yeah. 

Hana: That’s great. 

Leora: Would you say that you’re friends with a lot of the other PIs or other scientists at Rockefeller?

Elizabeth: I’ve gotten to know a lot of them from the exercise classes. Believe it or not, we go out to dinner a lot. 

Hana: You have a lot of friends outside of the science world? 

Elizabeth: I do. I have a lot of friends like probably, again…they’re probably partners of scientists who do other things as well, or parents of my kids’ friends. Yeah. 

Jacob: If you weren’t a scientist, what job would you choose? 

Elizabeth: Literature. I would teach literature. Yes. I love literature. 

Leora: Would you ever consider being a writer? 

Elizabeth: I don’t think I have the creativity to be a writer to be honest. But I just love reading and I love relating it to [the] world, life.

Jacob: You like the consumption, not so much the output. 

Elizabeth: Exactly, yes. I’m really good at analyzing it. Not so good at putting it out. 

Leora: So what advice would you give to high school or college students who are thinking about becoming a scientist? 

Elizabeth: Oh my goodness. So I would say if you want to be a scientist, it is a lot of fun. It should be a lot of fun, but it’s also a little…a lot of it’s grueling and sometimes things don’t work. So I would say make sure you’re going into it for the right reasons. 

Have a passion. It has to be burning. Like I really wanted to work with the people who discovered DNA and learn how you can use genetics, use biochemistry to answer your questions. And I think that’s all I could think about. 

I used to do dissections in Swarthmore and I would just bring home my carcasses and keep dissecting. My roommate hated it. But yeah, so it was always burning, like I can’t get it outta my head. So I would say make sure it’s a burning desire and then do it. And find the right role models. 

Science should be fun. It should be kind. It should be sort of like a family [in] the lab. So I think that’s important that you’re not just part of a factory putting out papers in science. 

Leora: So what to you is the best part of science? 

Elizabeth: I think having an idea and then testing it and, whether you’re right or wrong, just being able to investigate new concepts and new ideas. It’s very much like a puzzle. So I like crosswords. 

Jacob: Oh my God! 

Elizabeth: So it’s like a logic, right? You’re working things out. These clues are leading you here to the next one and all that. So I think science is very much like a nice puzzle. [A] kind of Sherlockian adventure.

Jacob: Do you do the New York Times crossword? 

Elizabeth: I used to do it. I’m not that great at it. I can get to Wednesday. Then Thursday and Fridays, I… You guys do crosswords? 

Jacob: I love crosswords. I make crosswords. And I actually last year interned for Will Shortz at the New York Times. 

Elizabeth: Oh my God! His crosswords are the best. Yeah. 

Jacob: Yeah. But I think, you know, when we talk about crosswords and we talk about science, I agree with you that they’re so similar in that there’s kind of… Really everything that anyone does because of this passion for discovery, passion for filling in the blank spaces that there are out there. That’s something that’s so universal. And it applies to science, it applies to crosswords, it applies to really every single field of work that people do. And I think it’s something that people can think about when they wanna relate themselves to people in other professions. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, no, my daughter says, “you know what I love about you?” And my husband’s also a scientist–she’s like, “you guys get up and you’re ready. You’re jumping outta…you can’t wait to think about it, get into the lab and, and address these questions.” I think that’s how [you] know that you are a scientist because you have these burning curiosities and you just follow them. You try them. You surround yourself with people who are inspiring, good role models, and find a question that interests you. 

Leora: Is there any part of your life that we didn’t touch on that… 

Hana: That you wanna share? 

Elizabeth: I’d like to, if you don’t mind me going on a little bit of a soapbox… 

Hana: No!

Leora: Not at all.

Elizabeth: I would just like to say that I would love for science to change, I’d like for science to become more real, more conversational like we’re having here, but also sort of more inclusive for people everywhere so that you don’t come from a specific background and feel like you’re the only person of this background, whatever it is. Whether it be your gender identity or your racial or ethnic or socioeconomic background. You should feel comfortable. And I’m hoping to get away from that kind of formalized view of science and sciences. So that’s gonna be my goal in the next 10 years.

Jacob: Wow. I mean, that’s kind of part of the goal of this podcast. We figured that there…

Hana: Make science more accessible to everyone. 

Jacob: Yeah, exactly. 

Hana: Anyone can be a scientist. 

Leora: Yeah, it’s not like scientists, up here, and everyone else, down here. 

Elizabeth: Right. 

Leora: Everyone’s at the same level and everyone can share.

Elizabeth: Exactly. No, exactly. And also I think your view here is that there’s not a specific person that’s a scientist. Right? Getting rid of that. I often go to jury duty, so not often, but I’ve been there. They ask me what I do and I say, “a scientist,” and they’re like, “what? Really?” I’m like, “yeah.” 

Leora: They’re like, “that’s so crazy!” 

Elizabeth: So I know. So hopefully that disappears. 

Elizabeth: I plan to use this to change it a little bit or as much as I can. 

Jacob: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

Elizabeth: You’re welcome.

Leora: Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Campbell! 

Hana: It was great meeting you today! 

Elizabeth: Yeah, thank you guys! 

Jacob: And thank you for listening, and we’ll see you next time on Beyond the Lab!

Leora: Thank you for listening! Okay, we got it. 

Emily: Thanks to our interviewee, Dr. Elizabeth Campbell, and thank you for listening. If you like what you heard, please share our podcast with family, friends, and anyone you know who loves science and stories of the people behind it. Beyond the Lab is a production of RockEDU Science Outreach at The Rockefeller University in New York City.

It was produced and hosted by Hana, Leora, and Jacob during their participation in the Summer Science Research Program. It was also produced by Emily Costa and Laura Pellicer, with assistance from Lizzie Krisch. Our cover art was designed by Jeanne Garbarino, and our theme music is by Blue Dot Sessions.

To learn more about Beyond the Lab or RockEDU, please visit www.rockefeller.edu/outreach. And thanks for listening! 

Jacob: Maybe we’ll join in on a fitness class. 

Leora: Spin class! 

Hana: Oh, we would love that! 

Elizabeth: Seriously, you have my email. I expect to see you there. That’s a challenge. 

Leora: We’ll put some music recs [together] for you.

Elizabeth: Please do. Yes, please do.