Episode 5: Alison North

In this episode, we meet Dr. Alison North, senior director at Rockefeller’s Bio-Imaging Resource Center, where she designs and trains researchers on state-of-the-art microscopy techniques. Beyond the lab, we learn about Dr. North’s passions for birding and kayaking, what it means to work in a core facility, and how community and collaboration can make science better.

This episode was hosted and recorded by Davud, Kelton, and Mark.

Beyond the Lab is produced by RockEDU Science Outreach and was recorded during the 2025 Summer Science Research Program (SSRP). To learn more, visit rockefeller.edu/outreach.

Listen to Beyond the Lab on Spotify or Apple Podcasts! For audio with closed-captioning, please visit our YouTube page.

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Transcript

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.
Kelton: Hi, this is Kelton.

Davud: This is Davud.

Kelton: And this is

In unison: (slightly out of sync) Beyond the Lab!

Davud: Okay, wait, wait, wait.

Kelton: I’ll do three, two…

Davud: Then I’ll say…

Kelton: Hi, this is Kelton.

Davud: This is Davud. And this is…

In unison: Beyond the Lab!

Davud: Welcome to Beyond the Lab, the podcast where we discuss all things not science with the world’s leading scientists. Today we’re honored to speak to Dr. Allison North.

Kelton: Dr. Allison North is the Senior Director of The Rockefeller University’s Bio-Imaging Resource Center, a world-renowned facility she established in 2000, where she [has] advised and trained hundreds of researchers in state-of-the-art microscopy. A cell biologist by training, her work [has] significantly advanced scientific imaging, including studies on muscle defects and cellular organization. And she plays a key leadership role in global bio-imaging networks, like Bio-Imaging North America. So our first question for you is the icebreaker. So the question is, what’s your favorite way to eat potatoes?

Alison: My favorite way to eat potatoes?

Kelton: Yes.

Alison: Um, lots of different ways. Oh, I’m going to produce a classic for you. Bubble and squeak and mashed tatties.

Kelton: Wow. Those are unique terms I’ve never heard about!

Alison: That’s right. You get them in Great Britain.

Kelton: Whoa.

Alison: So tatties is potatoes. So mashed tatties you would get in Scotland. And bubble and squeak is vegetables you would just– Leftovers you would fry up together. They’re very good.

Kelton: They’re really good?

Alison: They’re really good.

Kelton: Okay.

Alison: Yes.

Kelton: So for me, my favorite way to eat potatoes [is] really American. I love french fries. They’re just solid. They’re just a solid way to eat potatoes.

Davud: Oh, this is very difficult. I think maybe potatoes au gratin.

Alison: That’s a good one.

Kelton: So we’re going to go into your background and probably your childhood. So you’re a native [of] Yorkshire from the United Kingdom and you pursued your undergraduate studies at the University of Cambridge, followed by a doctorate from Oxford University. Could you tell us a little about your childhood and what sparked your initial interest in science leading you to such prestigious universities?

Alison: Okay. So I grew up in a family of geeky scientists, is the truth. My father was head of biophysics at Leeds University. My mother was also a physicist. She actually did her PhD in London at a time when very few women were doing physics and biophysics. And in fact she worked in the same lab or in the same institute as Rosalind Franklin, who you might have heard of, right? So she used to go hiking and go out to lunch with Rosalind Franklin because women were not allowed in the tea room at lunchtime. So that’s where she met my dad. My dad always says that he married her ‘cause he dropped his crystal. He was a protein crystallographer, and he dropped his crystal on the floor and she found it. That’s what he always claims; that’s why he married her.

Anyway, so my grandfather was a physicist, and my other grandfather was a chemist, and so it was kind of expected that we would do lots of science. Now, having said that, I also nearly did music professionally. I played the bassoon, which is a little unusual, and so that partly informed why I went to Cambridge University.

So Cambridge University, there were two good reasons for going there. The first was that instead of expecting you to specialise in one course, which in England you’re normally expected to do– Like by the age of 16, you almost have to know what you want to do. And Cambridge, instead of having physics or chemistry or something, it had natural sciences. So you could go there and you could pick several subjects. So you didn’t have to already know what you wanted to do. So that was one attraction for me. The other attraction was the music, because Cambridge is absolutely famous for its extracurricular music, and people told me that I would actually get more bassoon playing if I went to Cambridge University as a scientist than if I went to music college in London. So that’s why I did it. And then to decide which one I would do at the end of being an undergraduate… So that was that.

And then okay, so the next question, why did I go to Oxford? I went to Oxford because–and this is going to sound incredibly geeky and I can’t make it up and it is not a lie at all–in my last year at Cambridge, it was the first time I looked through a fluorescence microscope and I kind of fell in love with it. And I decided I wanted to do a PhD that was going to use fluorescence microscopes. And the one I found in Oxford was with someone and he had just– He was installing the first confocal microscope in that city in the lab and he said I would get to work on it. Of course that didn’t happen because for three years it didn’t work, so I ended up doing electron microscopy. That’s life, right? But that is why I picked Oxford.

Kelton: That is an amazing story.

Davud: Wow.

Kelton: So after your doctorate, you undertook postdoctoral research in Salzburg.

Davud: Salzburg.

Kelton: Sorry, and Manchester, where you were also awarded a Wellcome Trust Career Development Fellowship. How did those early research experiences shape your scientific approach and interests?

Alison: Okay, so the thought of going to work in Austria was just kind of incredible. Vic Small at the Institute for Molecular Biology in Salzburg was an incredibly fun person to work with. I just had the best two years of my life working with Vic. He was amazing fun, but he was really into microscopes. He loved microscopes, and so during that time with him, I just used microscopes all the time. As I said, things had kind of gone wrong in my PhD, so I ended up doing electron microscopy, and that made me very, very marketable. So that’s partly why Vic wanted me, and then it was the same thing moving to Manchester at the end of my two-year fellowship.

Then again, there was a job there that was using the techniques that I was specialized in, so I moved back there. While I was in Manchester, then came out the first green fluorescent protein constructs. So no one had heard of GFP beforehand, and suddenly everyone was into live imaging with GFP. And so I jumped on the bandwagon too. I was researching desmosomes, cell-cell junctions. And yeah. So I thought, well, I might as well try looking at the assembly and disassembly of them.

So here’s the funny thing about the Wellcome Trust Fellowship. So that was the first year they had career development fellowships, and there were only 12 of them in the whole country. So it was kind of amazing that I got one. But I will never forget that in the interview for it, at the end, they said to me, “Right, what we want you to do is go back and do some molecular biology in the lab because all you’ve ever done in your life, it seems, is microscopy.” And there is no job out there in the world that is going to be purely microscopy. So I spent the next four years doing molecular biology, totally failed, nothing ever worked, disaster, hated gels, hated everything to do with it. And then at the end of it, I get a job here doing 100% microscopy. So it’s kind of some irony there.

But I’m glad I did it because I learned a lot about the other techniques that people use and I realized, you know, that I do really love doing microscopy. I wasn’t just imagining it. I had always been accused of jumping around helping lots of people with their microscopy, and I realized that’s what I loved. And my own PhD student said to me, “You know boss, it would be amazing if there was the kind of job out there where you could really be a microscopy consultant.” And I was like, “Yeah wouldn’t it be, but there is no such job.”

So at this point the fellowship’s coming to an end. I’m trying to think what am I gonna do now with my life. And I heard from one of the professors here, Mike Rout. Mike Rout was at university with me in Cambridge. We were buddies since we were 18. And he wrote and he said, “We want somebody to start up an imaging facility at The Rockefeller University. Why don’t you come? You’d be perfect.” And I said, “No I wouldn’t, because I’m not going to America. It’s insane. People there work far too long hours. They work weekends. They don’t get vacations. I am not going there.” And then he said, “No, no, you should come.” And I said, “No, I’m not coming because it’s crazy. It’s in New York. I hate big cities. Forget it, forget it, forget it.” And finally he said, “Just come out for an interview. Just visit me. We’ll just have a holiday, you know, it’ll be fun.” So I came out for an interview, and that was 25 years ago.

Kelton: You’re still here, at Rockefeller. So I guess life is just…

Alison: You never know what’s gonna happen.

Kelton: You never know what’s gonna happen. Yeah, one conversation could put you in microscopy.

Alison: I’m a strong believer in that, of making, you know– That it’s very important to have your networks of people that you know, because that is how things usually lead to something else.

Kelton: Yeah.

Davud: That’s very true. Wow. With your time here at Rockefeller, did you always envision a career in a core facility?

Alison: Yeah, I did not always envisage a life in a core facility, because I didn’t know what it would be like to be honest. What I can tell you is that I personally have never once been tempted to go back into research because, after a few years of being here, I realized this is the job that I much prefer because I would never have been an amazing scientist. I didn’t have the ideas for it. What I love about this job is that I get to help amazing scientists do their work much quicker than they would manage to do it by themselves. I’m never going to earn the Nobel Prize, you know. That’s not in my future or recognition, but that doesn’t matter. I’m helping a lot of people get along the way and that’s more important to me.

And I think the kind of person who works in a core facility is the kind of person who likes to help other people–is self-selective, right? You’re not doing it for your own glory because you don’t get to be. So you’re doing it, really, because you like helping others. So I think the imaging scientist community– I don’t think there’s a nicer community out there in science. And I’m saying that totally genuinely. I mean, my colleagues working in other places, they’re just really lovely, amazing people.

So like recently I had a massive flood. I lost four, no three, three camera controllers. These are expensive things. They’re no longer made. You couldn’t get them, the company couldn’t get them. I’m like how am I gonna fix this in time? I have this workshop coming up. I want these fixed. And I just posted a message on this international list server. Within five minutes, about 20 people from around the world have said, “I’ve got one. I’ll send it to you.” It’s amazing.

Kelton: Wow.

Alison: So it’s just, it’s a very nice community.

Kelton: I feel like when you have the right community with you, you could pretty much do anything. Because me personally, I am in the stem cell group for my program and they’re the best. It’s so fun to be around them and when everyone helps each other. It’s just great. It’s just like you can’t go wrong with that.

So we’re going to go on to our next question, which is less about your background and more about what you love to do now. So our first question is, do you have a favorite book, movie, or TV show that you enjoy outside of your scientific pursuit?

Alison: I must confess, I have a very bad habit of sitting down and watching trashy TV in the evenings.

Kelton: That’s all of us.

Alison: It relaxes me. So yes, actually my first technician here introduced me to Seinfeld. He was shocked that I’d never seen Seinfeld. And I must admit that I still, late at night, don’t mind just watching another repeat of Seinfeld. It’s so New York, [it] just cracks me up. It does apply to everything. But more of my hobbies outside work are outdoor things than indoor.

Kelton: Yeah, so like let’s say something outdoors.

Alison: Well that’s difficult, you see I have many. So I love to kayak. That’s one of the things I love to do. I actually own my own kayak, which is difficult to house an 18-foot kayak when you don’t have a car. So I actually keep it upstate. A friend of mine keeps it up there on [the] Hudson River. So we go kayaking there, or I go out in the Great South Bay, or I kayak wherever I can in the world on trips.

So I’m going at the end of September, back up to the top of Vancouver Island to this wilderness, tiny little island. It just has like eight tents on it. It’s a glamping site. That’s why I love it in particular. It has proper beds in the tents, and you just lie there and you hear all the humpback whales at night just breaching in the water.

Kelton: Humpback whales?

Alison: Oh yeah. Last time I was up there, I was kayaking at sunset with one of the leaders, and this humpback whale just rose out of the water 20 feet from my kayak. It was brilliant. She was panicking. I was just like, this is the way I go. This is the way I go, this is brilliant. I mean, it would only go that way if it landed on you because they’re very gentle. They just don’t know you’re there because they can’t echolocate.

So I love to kayak. And where else have I been? Oh, Patagonia, I did a three week kayaking trip in Patagonia about 10 years ago, and that was amazing. We saw nine blue whales in one day.

Kelton: Whoa, that is…

Alison: That was incredible. So I like kayaking. I love cross-country skiing. I do not really like downhill skiing. I’m a peace-and-quiet nature person. I am not an adrenaline person.

So I like to hike, not in the hot summer months of July and August. I prefer to hike somewhere [with] a bit more reasonable temperatures, like back home in Yorkshire, or Patagonia was amazing for hiking too. So when the fall comes then I’ll hike.

I love bird watching. That’s been my latest passion from the last few years. Unfortunately my eyesight– You think I’d be great looking through microscopes, but actually I have tons of floaters in my eyes and I can’t see that well. So I’ve been trying to learn to bird by ear. And I love that. That’s really cool, when you can ID all the birds by ear. I go with this friend. Her vision is legendary with the New York bird guides. We think she might have this thing, I think it’s called [tetrachromacy], where instead of having three kinds of cones in your eye, you have four. And we’re pretty sure she’s got it, ’cause she says she can see additional colors. So we go together and I hear something unusual, and then I often need Merlin to tell me what it is, but I’m the one who hears something. And then I say, “Right, where is it?” And then she goes, “Bird!” She just points at it–she has no idea what it is. She can’t ID them, but she can spot them. So then I ID it. So it’s great. We’re a great team together.

Kelton: It’s a great team, yeah.

Alison: So it’s a lot of fun. Yeah, so I like birding. And I play music. So I don’t play as much nowadays, ’cause it’s tricky because of just time constraints, but I sing in a choir. I sing in a couple of local choirs. One is incredibly good and very intense. And we sing lots of modern commissioned pieces, often New York [or] world premieres. Some I love. Some, I hope the conductor isn’t listening, I don’t love. But you never know.

Kelton: Yeah.

Alison: It’s something new anyway, so that’s fun. Traveling, obviously I love to travel.

Davud: Do you have a favourite place you’ve been?

Alison: Yes, the Galápagos Islands. Hands down, been there twice.

Kelton: Wow, that’s…

Alison: Not many people have been there twice, yes. Galápagos Islands and Patagonia, which I’ve also been [to] twice. I think that’s also up at the top of my list.

Davud: Lovely. Come visit Kosovo if you ever have the chance.

Alison: I’ve never been there. Would love to, yes.

Davud: So moving more onto personal things. Being a judge at both the Olympus BioScapes and the Nikon Small World Photomicrography… How does one pronounce the word? Photomicrography… (laughing)

Alison: (laughing) Micrography, it’s a tricky one.

Davud: We practiced this word too before we came here, and we still gotta…

Alison: Micrography, yeah.

Davud: Photomicrography competitions. We wanted just to know personally, what’s one of your favorite images that you have judged and why?

Alison: Oh my gosh, I loved judging those competitions. It was such fun. There would just be four of us for a day and we would just look through like 10,000 amazing pictures. You might think because of my job that I would be fascinated by the cell biology ones and sort of the scientific ones, but I have to tell you we all of us fall for bugs. Bugs under microscopes look amazing.

Kelton: That is true. That is true.

Alison: I’ll never forget, there’s a picture out there. I think we gave [it] first prize–these little bugs and they had little green bottoms. I don’t even know what they are. And then there was a tiny embryonic bat that won one year as well, and just kind of unusual things. But yeah. The things in pond water, unexpected things…honestly, they’re kind of the ones we like the most, I think.

Kelton: Yeah, I’ve seen some of the images for those competitions. They look beautiful. I don’t even know what they are, but they look beautiful.

Alison: They’re stunning, aren’t they? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelton: Beautiful, yeah.

Alison: I know. That was like, that was an amazing privilege.

Davud: That’s wonderful.

Kelton: Okay, so you may know that science is in a really important part of history right now, especially with everything going on in the world. What would you– What is some advice you would give out to all scientists of how to act, like how to interact with each other, maybe be more like a community…what advice would [you] say to them?

Alison: Try and stay positive. I think it will be that. And it’s really, really hard to do at the moment. But on the other hand, negativity isn’t gonna get anyone anywhere. So I think just trying to do the best you can, just keep going with what you can and do science because science is so important.

Okay, sorry, I’m gonna do more than one. I also think just like, I think it’s really, really important for us right now to educate the general public into why science is important. I think there’s been so much misinformation out there, so they don’t necessarily understand. And when it is told to them, it’s communicated in what may seem like a very condescending manner. And our job is to be a science specialist, right? But I know nothing, for example, about money. I can’t stand anything to do with finances or taxes. I don’t understand a word of it. So I have to get people to help me, and I don’t understand what they’re talking about. So I think we have a responsibility to learn to communicate science in a way that’s clearly understood and not condescending. I think it’s just really important to practice. They say practice your elevator speech, you know, but I don’t mean for getting a job. I mean just for talking to your neighbor and explaining to them, you know, why is this important?

Davud: Wow.

Kelton: Thank you so much.

Davud: So if we were to ask about your favorite things within the realm of science or microscopy, what will come to mind? Like an image, a sample, a different technique or method you use?

Alison: I’m very fond of super resolution imaging. So super resolution is like– [In] the last 15 years in fluorescence microscopy, they’ve really pushed the limits. So everybody thought there was this fundamental diffraction limit that you couldn’t break, so you’d never be able to see anything below around 200 nanometers in size with an optical microscope. And in the last 20 years or so, they’ve shown that actually, there are various different ways of circumventing this and getting around it. And now they’ve pushed this resolution limit down from say 200 nanometers literally to more like one to two nanometers. So now it’s approaching the resolution of an electron microscope. Super resolution kind of requires the level of detail and care that electron microscopy did compared to a standard light microscopy, so you have to be that much more precise. And it’s just that little bit more fiddly, but you get these amazing images and it allows you to look at live things. So now you can be doing high resolution imaging of live things.

So I think maybe my most exciting, well no, I’ve had so many exciting moments here. That’s the trouble, you see, ’cause I’ve worked with different people. There was the time, the first super resolution microscope that I had up and running, and I was working with Jim Hudspeth, who work[ed] on stereocilia in hearing. And he’d always had to use an electron microscope to be able to see these little stereocilia in their bundles like organ pipes. And then we labeled them with GFP-actin. And the first time we put them under the super resolution and we actually managed to resolve them all and see them in a live zebrafish, he came down and he almost fell off his chair. So these kind of moments, I think, when I’ve worked with the professors and we can suddenly see something that we’ve never been able to see before by any other technique and it’s just… They’re amazed too. I think, any of those moments. There have been many, many of them in 25 years.

Davud: That’s insane.

Alison: But it’s not just that. There’s also the success, honestly. I think one of the things that’s most motivating is seeing a student come in who, on day one, they look terrified. And they’re like, “I’ve never used a microscope. I don’t know how to use a microscope.” And it’s like, “Okay, that doesn’t matter. That’s our job.” And then by the end of the day, they’re smiling. And then by three years later, they’ve published their PhD and they’ve left. And they’re doing a postdoc that’s all microscopy or, you know, they’re running their own lab. I have four members of staff who’ve left and now head their own core facilities, which is very cool I think. So yeah, so the scientific breakthroughs are cool, but actually I think the most satisfaction I get is from somebody who initially didn’t really like the technique or was scared of it and then suddenly falls in love with it. And it’s like okay, now we’ve made a difference here.

Davud: Wow.

Kelton: That is so cool.

Davud: I cannot even believe the impact you’ve had on people.

Kelton: Yeah. That is just incredible.

Alison: When we were talking earlier and you were saying, you know, what advice would I have to students. I have one very strong piece of advice. I have never worked for somebody I did not like as a person. I mean there are good scientists, there are extraordinary scientists who are complete jerks, and there are also extraordinary scientists who are really nice people. So why would you choose to work for the complete jerk? And I know some people do because they’re so famous, but I just don’t care. I wanted to work for somebody who I actually like and enjoy interacting with because I feel much more motivated by that. And if I’m feeling positive and I’m in a positive atmosphere, I just think that’s really important.

Kelton: That’s amazing advice here.

Alison: Might make me unpopular with some of the scientists…

(all laughing)

Davud: (jokingly) Cancel her!

Kelton: Yeah no. This has been a great time.

Davud: I’m truly speechless. The stuff you do is just so cool. Well, thank you so much for your time.

Kelton: Thank you so much.

Alison: You’re welcome.

Kelton: Thank you for joining us, Dr. North. And thank you for listening to Beyond the Lab.

[OUTRO]

Kelton: Yeah, it’s 25 years.

Alison: 25 years, the BISC. Someone should be throwing me a party…

Kelton: Exactly, yeah.

Alison: I don’t have time to organize it.

Kelton: Where’s your party? Where’s your party?